Again, another feeder design

Knas
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:07 am

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by Knas »

dave wrote:Do you think I can make them mostly in aluminum on cnc milling machine? Or dose it rely on some flexible plastic parts that need 3D printing.

I dont have a 3d printer :(

If you want to sell me 20 or so tell me the price. I will spend a small fortune on commercial feeders in the new year otherwise.
These were all made on a CNC router, all the cogs and levers are aluminium, the housing is plastic simply because it's cheaper, faster & easier to machine - i don't see any problems with using aluminium.

Karl
Knas
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:07 am

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by Knas »

mrandt wrote:Karl,
Once you publish those, I will try to 3D print some of the parts - should be possible at least for the case; maybe not the plates but the middle part. As discussed before, the mechanis probably need to be CNC milled for stiffness and durability. Have you made these from aluminium or steel?
All the mechanics are made from aluminium, i think getting waterjet cut steel parts would be best for the future tho. The current design wouldn't work with plasma cutting unless one of the cogs would be cut as two different parts and sandwiched together
mrandt wrote: What I would also like to try is make a feeder that has your mechanics for tape advancement but also includes the spool holder and tape cover winder; so I could easily change parts by changing feeders just like on a commercial PnP. I am thinking of using a back plane cut from sheet aluminium; similar to what Protovoltaics designed. But first things first; for a start I would be more than happy if I could build something that works as nicely as your feeders.
Well the way it's designed right now each feeder is fastened with one hex screw in the back and slips into a "lip" in the front. The reels are just hanging on the hinges, so really you just need to unscrew one thing and lift both the feeder and reel out and replace it with whatever. The reel hinges are made so they can accommodate any width reel, you just have to space them properly yourself. I haven't figured out how to make the "lip" modular for any size yet though it's not a super pressing concern.
mrandt wrote: By the way - how are you routing the cover tape now? I can't see it in your pictures.
Well until i tried it all yesterday i was using two rubber rollers from a hacked up laminator, they *were* putting out just the right amount of tension on the tapes to slip when the feeder was "closed" and reel in the tape when it was "open". Though as it turns out this doesn't work anymore when trying to run 25 feeders through it, the tension is lost. I could add more tension by putting the rollers closer but it's far from a preferable solution as tension would then be very dependent on how many feeders one have in at the moment. I'm kinda stumped right now on how to proceed, i've spent all day on this trying to make individual rollers for each and failed too many times.

I'm almost considering buying this; http://www.robotdigg.com/product/560/De ... elt+Roller but i really don't like how it has a fixed amount of feeders and fixed size. The modularity concept is kinda out the door with this type of contraption. Any ideas on how to make a good tensions roller very welcome, this is driving me nuts!

On another note, once i've verified that these work properly i will probably develop a electrified version that feeds automatically. It could easily be done with solenoids but it turns out they're damn expensive and don't come in a small & powerful package enough. I want to stack these close as i want as many as possible. So far the cheapest route seems to be servos which could be as cheap as $2 each but they would require more electronics, quite possibly too much for my comfort. Pneumatics would rule but they're faaaar to expensive. Again, any ideas very welcome.

Karl
JuKu
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Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by JuKu »

You have one roller that peels off the tape for each feeder. I would think you need a spring loaded wheel where the spring tension adjusts so, that it pees off the cover, but does not tear it. Also, the spring should be activated only when that particular feeder is advancing. If there is a tensioned roller pushing the cover tape against the big roller, it would wear off the tape.

Sounds complicated and I'm not sure I like this scheme, but so far, the best I can think.
mrandt
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Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by mrandt »

Knas wrote:The current design wouldn't work with plasma cutting unless one of the cogs would be cut as two different parts and sandwiched together
I don't understand why plasma cutting would not work - but I guess I might once I look at the drawings. Will figure out a way I suppose.
Knas wrote:[...] you just need to unscrew one thing and lift both the feeder and reel out and replace it with whatever
I get it. Still, I would like to just keep the reel with the feeder. If they are reasonably cheap to make, I'd rather keep a bunch of feeders than a bunch of reels in my stocks.

But I agree, it is more a matter of convenience and not super pressing issue.
Knas wrote:Any ideas on how to make a good tensions roller very welcome, this is driving me nuts!
I am with Juha on this one, I also think it there needs to be one roller per feeder. Maybe for a quick fix attach a fishing weight to the end of the cover tape and let gravity do the work.

In the long run, I think there are two possible approaches:

1) A spool that rolls up the cover tape; has to emptied every now and then

2) A set of rubber wheels or metal gears with "shallow teeth" (sorry, as English is not my native language I am having trouble to translate this; hope you get what I mean) similar to your butchered laminator but per feeder; spent cover tape is just routed outside the feeder so it is more or less endless drive

For 2 I am thinking "lego wheels" or more professional metal gears with a spring mechanism to push them onto the cover tape. For 1 anything is possible; either 3D printing or milling spools, or finding some ready made spool which just fits.

Both mechanisms need to be driven somehow. Again, two options:

a) Mechanically

b) Electrically with a motor

For a) I think the spool or wheels should use a spring loaded mechanism. Thinking of a clock spring attached to the rotary axis, which keeps tension on the cover tape, even when nothing is moving. By adding some additional gears to your existing mechanism, the spring could be tensioned again allowing endless operation.

When going for b) you either need control electronics to only advance tape in the right moment and by the right amount (dificult) or go for a clutch that allows to keep a preset torque. One idea I had was to use mechanical clutches, basically two discs with some rare earth magnets fittet into them (easy to 3D print or mill). While mated, they nicely transport the rotation. And depending on the magnetic force, they slip - with virtually no wear and tear.
Knas wrote:On another note, once i've verified that these work properly i will probably develop a electrified version that feeds automatically.
If you plan to do this, consider the approach that Brian took - he added a special head to actuate his mechanical feeders. The head only needs to move linearly along one axis (parallel to feeders). He also first tried solenoids (too weak), then a stepper + lead screw (too slow) and then ended up with a pneumatic cylinder and an extra solenoid. Compressed air was available on his machine anyways.

See it in action here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdCzUlh ... Q&index=45

And find the writeup here:
http://www.briandorey.com/post/DIY-Pick ... ete.aspx#5


By the way, have you seen the discussion with William regarding feeders on OpenPNP group?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... QUzQ3I7aRc

Do you feel like chiming in? ;-)
mrandt
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:56 am
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by mrandt »

Just found the picture I was looking for; this is the cover tape advance roller from a commercial feeder:
cover_tape_roller.jpg
cover_tape_roller.jpg (45.5 KiB) Viewed 10282 times
Source: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/o ... VGqWcCJcUJ
mrandt
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Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by mrandt »

Hey Karl,

how is it going?

I found another clip by Brian which shows how his modified commercial (Panasonic?) feeders advance the tape.

They use a spool to take up the waste cover tape; it is driven mechanically by the same lever mechanism which advances the component tape.

See here:
https://youtu.be/EA7w146M7r8?t=3m38s

Cheers
Malte
mrandt
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Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by mrandt »

Hello,

I found yet another quite simplistic DIY feeder on the web:

Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y58Z7Kioi_c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh_QQo3LNsw

It advances the tape by pulling the cover tape using a geared or stepper motor, similar to Volker Besmen's approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPw1u8_RcOc

Find a detailed discussion / description of each approach here:
http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/128881/2
https://www.vbesmens.de/de/bestueckungs ... eeder.html

Cheers
Malte
Spikee
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:49 am

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by Spikee »

Neodens sells their neoden4 feeders for about 60$. Might be good to check if these are hack-able to be used on other machines.
Spikee
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:49 am

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by Spikee »

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 72798.html
seems just to be a "dumb" stepper signal input and for the peeler a dc input. I might try this out.
Image

Got conformation that the top connector is a stepper and the tape peeler is a dc motor.
These can be bought without owning the machine.
jarekk
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:06 pm

Re: Again, another feeder design

Post by jarekk »

Knas wrote: Oh yeah and then don't forget about alibaba.com and aliexpress.com, amazing sources - alibaba literally have anything you want, i haven done the craziest searches and something always pops up.
I have actually order 25 pcs of special step motor version for my machine. Quite amazing that they were not more expensive the ordinary ones ( I needed shallow shaft and longer then ordinary version).
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