Hi Juha,
I hope this is the proper board to put this question in, because it looks to be the first of this "usage" kind. Otherwise please move ...
We have small PCBs (say 1x2cm) and each will contain 16 or so components. Can easily be done by hand (soldering). However, one end product will contain already 56 of these PCBs minimum (and 224 max). And this is still for one end product.
I see no reason that we can't align the PCBs nicely (or maybe we must make a large bracket for them) and why the software won't find them all. However, I can foresee redundancy in the "profile" (??) data;
Obviously we would define such a profile for one such a PCB. Next though there should be a definition of how many we put in the placement area. Not necessarily the amount per row per se, but still the max of them per row and maybe how many there are in the last row (which could be the first row only).
Similarly I see the strips with the components;
I think it is easy enough to need so many of the same components that one strip (is a row again) is not enough and that 2 or 3 strips are needed. Then a strip follows with another component (etc.).
So there's a one to many relation in (our) practice and I wonder whether this has been covered for ?
Thanks and regards,
Peter
Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
> I hope this is the proper board to put this question in, because it looks to be the first of this "usage" kind.
Exactly the right place, but there are not that many machines out there yet, I guess people are still assembling or fine-tuning their kits.
For your question, this is something that the software currently does not do, but some time in future, should. I see two ways to solve this:
1: As you described, have the software understand the concept of array: User tells that X pieces in x direction and distance from one to next, y pieces in y direction and distance from one to next, the software should be able to handle the rest.
2: Usually, you would get a panel of small PCBs with a break-off sections in between from the PCB manufacture. Some CAD systems can do this and build data for one big PCB. If your CAD can do this, you don't need to have alignment marks on each PCB.
The idea of several strips of the same component is a good one. The software doesn't have this either, but again, definitely something worth of doing.
Exactly the right place, but there are not that many machines out there yet, I guess people are still assembling or fine-tuning their kits.
For your question, this is something that the software currently does not do, but some time in future, should. I see two ways to solve this:
1: As you described, have the software understand the concept of array: User tells that X pieces in x direction and distance from one to next, y pieces in y direction and distance from one to next, the software should be able to handle the rest.
2: Usually, you would get a panel of small PCBs with a break-off sections in between from the PCB manufacture. Some CAD systems can do this and build data for one big PCB. If your CAD can do this, you don't need to have alignment marks on each PCB.
The idea of several strips of the same component is a good one. The software doesn't have this either, but again, definitely something worth of doing.
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
Thank you very much Juha.
Of course our machine has to be build as well (it arrived). Super fun to see the big box FULL with parts !
Peter
Of course our machine has to be build as well (it arrived). Super fun to see the big box FULL with parts !
Peter
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RinusDamen
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:51 pm
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
I am also interessted in this functionality, because i sometimes need to assemble small boards which are panelized by the PCB manufacturer.
For example 5(lines) x 3(kolom) PCB's on one panel whith cutouts milled in between them.
I only have 1 XY P&P file, i can measure the distance between the PCB's and add this distance to X and Y and do this 5 in Y direction and 3 times in X direction.
However there are some problems: Multiple the same Refdes in my P&P file, maybe liteplacer software can handle that (because part manufacturer number is more important than refdes)
I started to create a P&P file for more PCB's in one panel in excel, but it's more difficult as i thought (especialy if you want to create it generic for future use), google didn't help me, although i couldn't find it, anyone more luck?
For example 5(lines) x 3(kolom) PCB's on one panel whith cutouts milled in between them.
I only have 1 XY P&P file, i can measure the distance between the PCB's and add this distance to X and Y and do this 5 in Y direction and 3 times in X direction.
However there are some problems: Multiple the same Refdes in my P&P file, maybe liteplacer software can handle that (because part manufacturer number is more important than refdes)
I started to create a P&P file for more PCB's in one panel in excel, but it's more difficult as i thought (especialy if you want to create it generic for future use), google didn't help me, although i couldn't find it, anyone more luck?
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
Couldn't this be done by writing a "multiplier" script to post-process the input file?
http://www.liteplacer.com/input-file-format/
If you wrote a text file that told the script the X and Y offsets for each board in the panel, it could then produce an output file like this:
input:
R20, 0402, 10mm, 40mm ... (etc)
if offsets were A=(0,0) , B=(100, 100), output is:
R20A, 0402, 10mm, 40mm ...
R20B, 0402, 110mm, 140mm ...
I guess fudicials can be handled the same way?
Wouldn't that work? I think I could knock off a script like that in a few hours or so. It should scale to as many boards as you need.
http://www.liteplacer.com/input-file-format/
If you wrote a text file that told the script the X and Y offsets for each board in the panel, it could then produce an output file like this:
input:
R20, 0402, 10mm, 40mm ... (etc)
if offsets were A=(0,0) , B=(100, 100), output is:
R20A, 0402, 10mm, 40mm ...
R20B, 0402, 110mm, 140mm ...
I guess fudicials can be handled the same way?
Wouldn't that work? I think I could knock off a script like that in a few hours or so. It should scale to as many boards as you need.
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RinusDamen
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:51 pm
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
@danmcb,
That's exactly what I mean, thanks for your reply, although no one has replied yet I really think that all of us will need such a script sooner or later.
Most likely every proto-builder will face this 'issue' unless you pre-process the penalization with your PCB-CAD program upfront. In my case eurocircuits did the penalization for me (read my supplier).
I tried to 'write' something in excel but it still isn't working perfect due to my shortcoming on time and knowledge.
If you could write a script that would be really great, and I'm sure everyone is interested! Maybe Juha can implement your script in the liteplacer software later on. In that case there is a great additional advantage: the liteplacersoftware should than be able to measure the exact offset(s) of the panalized PCB's by using the vision system, wouldn't that be a great feature?! Did you mean by writing a script that it already is a patch for the liteplacer software itself?
thanks again for your interest in this topic.
That's exactly what I mean, thanks for your reply, although no one has replied yet I really think that all of us will need such a script sooner or later.
Most likely every proto-builder will face this 'issue' unless you pre-process the penalization with your PCB-CAD program upfront. In my case eurocircuits did the penalization for me (read my supplier).
I tried to 'write' something in excel but it still isn't working perfect due to my shortcoming on time and knowledge.
If you could write a script that would be really great, and I'm sure everyone is interested! Maybe Juha can implement your script in the liteplacer software later on. In that case there is a great additional advantage: the liteplacersoftware should than be able to measure the exact offset(s) of the panalized PCB's by using the vision system, wouldn't that be a great feature?! Did you mean by writing a script that it already is a patch for the liteplacer software itself?
thanks again for your interest in this topic.
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
hi Rinus
I don't have a liteplacer (yet). I am pretty busy but I could write this quite quickly in perl, I will try to find the time.
I also will use eurocircuits.
Where are you based? I would really like to see a liteplacer in real life!
greetings
Daniel
I don't have a liteplacer (yet). I am pretty busy but I could write this quite quickly in perl, I will try to find the time.
I also will use eurocircuits.
Where are you based? I would really like to see a liteplacer in real life!
greetings
Daniel
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RinusDamen
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:51 pm
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
Hello Daniel, my location is the Netherlands.
I'm still working on my machine, X-Y axis need to be wired, frame needs to be finished, which means adding extrusion profiles underneath to lift the machine; I am planning to use an open frame construction lifted with 40x20 profiles (creates space for the uplooking camera) and on the 'zero level' i'll mount 20x20 profiles to create a modular working bed which easily can be changed in the future (think of feeders underneath the bed for example).
Still need to create a solution for the uplooking camera mount. But I'll have to wait for the extrusion profiles to be delivered.
So... a few weeks to go before I really can start working with the machine.
Once I am fine with the first steps to show the world i'll post a youtube and pictures....
I already have a real project pending for the machine to start with (which I used to do manually). Its a simple small 10 x 7 mm board with only 3(diff) x 2(same) components on it, it's panelized 5 rows by 3 lines. I do have the P&P file for only 1 board, so that's why I need to create a file for all of the 15 boards. Unfortunately the fiducials are on the edge of the panelized board, but each board has some through hole or via pins which I can use as a reference (these positions are already known in the P&P file. So 3~4 of them could be used as reference, for example in a 5x3 matrix: (upper row: 1 2 3 4 5, middle row 6 7 8 9 10, lower row 11 12 13 14 15)
Through hole pin of board 1 (upper left corner)
Through hole pin of board 5 (upper right corner)
Through hole pin of board 11 (lower left corner)
Through hole pin of board 15 (lower right corner)
Just tell liteplacer that these are fiducials will do the trick for me (and of course the unused positions in the P&P file can be deleted).
Next week i'll post a picture of the board as an example (I don't have it here), if you like I can send you the p&P file which you can use as a reference to write the script.
By the way: off this topic, but I am also planning to use a laser engraved paste stencil, which saves a lot of time of manually 'print' paste. I googled that mylar is a cheap and perfect material for this purpose, and can be reused about 100 times before it starts to deform.
Cannot wait...
I'm still working on my machine, X-Y axis need to be wired, frame needs to be finished, which means adding extrusion profiles underneath to lift the machine; I am planning to use an open frame construction lifted with 40x20 profiles (creates space for the uplooking camera) and on the 'zero level' i'll mount 20x20 profiles to create a modular working bed which easily can be changed in the future (think of feeders underneath the bed for example).
Still need to create a solution for the uplooking camera mount. But I'll have to wait for the extrusion profiles to be delivered.
So... a few weeks to go before I really can start working with the machine.
Once I am fine with the first steps to show the world i'll post a youtube and pictures....
I already have a real project pending for the machine to start with (which I used to do manually). Its a simple small 10 x 7 mm board with only 3(diff) x 2(same) components on it, it's panelized 5 rows by 3 lines. I do have the P&P file for only 1 board, so that's why I need to create a file for all of the 15 boards. Unfortunately the fiducials are on the edge of the panelized board, but each board has some through hole or via pins which I can use as a reference (these positions are already known in the P&P file. So 3~4 of them could be used as reference, for example in a 5x3 matrix: (upper row: 1 2 3 4 5, middle row 6 7 8 9 10, lower row 11 12 13 14 15)
Through hole pin of board 1 (upper left corner)
Through hole pin of board 5 (upper right corner)
Through hole pin of board 11 (lower left corner)
Through hole pin of board 15 (lower right corner)
Just tell liteplacer that these are fiducials will do the trick for me (and of course the unused positions in the P&P file can be deleted).
Next week i'll post a picture of the board as an example (I don't have it here), if you like I can send you the p&P file which you can use as a reference to write the script.
By the way: off this topic, but I am also planning to use a laser engraved paste stencil, which saves a lot of time of manually 'print' paste. I googled that mylar is a cheap and perfect material for this purpose, and can be reused about 100 times before it starts to deform.
Cannot wait...
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
Perhaps I am not far away - I live in the north of Belgium. I'd be interested in seeing what you have, and perhaps I can help out a bit with this script, if you give me your input files we can use that as a test case.
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RinusDamen
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:51 pm
Re: Place more than one (same !) PCB at the time
hello Daniel,
For sure you are not far away; I live in the south of the NL how lucky can you be?! What is your objective with this machine and are you also planning to place an order for Juha? What is your daily job?
In the attachment you'll find the example of the P&P file, of course only the real refdes parts are relevant, which are 6 in total out of 3 different parts.
The other refdes 'parts' could be use as a fiducial for the P&P file.
I hope you're able to write a script which can be used for all of us liteplacer builders in case of producing panelized boards.
br, Rinus
update: I noticed the .txt file is not allowed, please send me your e-mail address (PM) and i'll send it to you.
For sure you are not far away; I live in the south of the NL how lucky can you be?! What is your objective with this machine and are you also planning to place an order for Juha? What is your daily job?
In the attachment you'll find the example of the P&P file, of course only the real refdes parts are relevant, which are 6 in total out of 3 different parts.
The other refdes 'parts' could be use as a fiducial for the P&P file.
I hope you're able to write a script which can be used for all of us liteplacer builders in case of producing panelized boards.
br, Rinus
update: I noticed the .txt file is not allowed, please send me your e-mail address (PM) and i'll send it to you.